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ForumsOther Peptides & Research CompoundsBPC-157 actually fixed my bad knee?? Is this placebo — what worked for you?

BPC-157 actually fixed my bad knee?? Is this placebo — what worked for you?

tyler_CSCS Tue, Jun 25, 2024 at 10:27 PM 18 replies 2,233 viewsPage 1 of 4
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tyler_CSCS
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Jun 25, 2024 at 10:27 PM#1

Writing this once so I can stop repeating it across threads. It is about the trial evidence, and it is deliberately narrow — everything I am not confident about is marked as such.

What is actually established

The gap between trial results and real-world results is consistent and it is not fraud. Trial participants get titration by protocol, scheduled contact, free drug and dietetic support; removing that infrastructure costs a few percentage points every time it has been measured. When your own curve sits below the published mean, that is the likeliest explanation before anything about you or your material.

The condition it depends on

Subgroup analyses deserve particular suspicion. With enough subgroups something is significant by chance, and pre-registered subgroups are a different animal from ones found afterwards.

The practical version

A quick sanity check on any figure quoted here: is it mean or median, is it intention-to-treat or completers, and what was the comparator. Three questions, and they resolve most disagreements in these threads.

What I am not sure about

The bit I cannot resolve on my own is how to read a result like this without either dismissing it or over-reading it, since the summaries all read like press releases. Numbers rather than impressions, if you have them.

— tyler_CSCS · corrections welcome and will be edited into this post with credit
17 12sean_dublin, hannah_MT, Dr.SportsMedIN and 14 others
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Dr.KarenChen
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Jun 25, 2024 at 10:48 PM#2
tyler_CSCS said:
The gap between trial results and real-world results is consistent and it is not fraud.

Agreeing with tyler_CSCS, and the qualification matters more than the agreement. Read four things before the headline number. The population, because trial populations are selected and supported in ways that real cohorts are not. The comparator, because "better than placebo" and "better than the current standard" are different claims and get reported identically. The primary endpoint as pre-registered, because a secondary endpoint promoted after the fact is a hypothesis rather than a finding. And the completion rate, because a large effect in the half of participants who finished is a different result from a large effect in everybody enrolled.

If somebody has the primary source to hand I would rather cite it than paraphrase it.

16 11JessicaM_2024, TomFromTexas, mike.trainer_LA and 13 others
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PharmD_Rodriguez
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Jun 25, 2024 at 11:09 PM#3
tyler_CSCS said:
The gap between trial results and real-world results is consistent and it is not fraud.

Pushing back on tyler_CSCS here. I would add the less popular caveat: these trial populations under-represented several groups, older adults and the highest BMI categories among them. The results probably generalise, and "probably" should be stated as an assumption rather than dropped.

15 10robert_kc, dan_philly, MeganSA_TX and 12 others
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rachel_ABQ
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Jun 25, 2024 at 11:30 PM#4

Taking the question as asked, rather than the general version of it. Relative and absolute effects need reading together. A 20% relative reduction on a high baseline risk is a large absolute benefit; the same relative figure on a low baseline risk is a small one, and press summaries almost always quote the relative number because it is bigger.

Last edited: Jun 26, 2024 at 4:30 AM
14 9SkepticalSean, Dr.CardioMD, EndoResFellow and 11 others
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CryptoCarl
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Jun 26, 2024 at 1:24 AM#5
Dr.KarenChen said:
Read four things before the headline number.

Can confirm. Same sequence, different timescale. I had assumed I was the exception until I read this.

Last edited: Jun 26, 2024 at 5:24 AM
13 8ChrisMacros, KetoKyle, CanadaChris and 10 others
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